Talk:List of rides

Reverting changes

I've undone Michael Beals' UK changes from 17-Dec-2014. Someone else may want to do the same thing for his US changes on the same date.

This also meant that I rolled back Cybernetent's changes from 22-Dec-2014, but they were just reversing a couple of the UK changes that Michael Beals made (to Chelmsford and Clacton), so I've effectively preserved that as part of my change.

There were various problems with what he did:

• Changed the status of long-standing rides (e.g. Brighton and London) to be "New ride planned" or "Kickstart this ride" rather than "Committed to ride".
• Adding "Previous rides" to some entries, even when they haven't ridden before. This then meant that some future dates were listed in the past (e.g. for Chelmsford).
• Changed the dates of some rides from 2014 to 2015 (e.g. Hastings and Oxford) without checking the corresponding page. This meant that it was an inaccurate prediction and this list didn't include the history of the 2014 ride.
• Mangled some of the formatting, e.g. putting {{ without the corresponding }} so it didn't get displayed correctly.

--Johnckirk 17:24, 30 December 2014 (PST)

'List of rides' USA needs better sorting

I think it might be better if we sort the rides in the US based on the state rather then city. For instance all the Florida rides would now be grouped together rather then a separate page grouping them.

Removed suggested future ride dates

• Olympia, WA 10 Jun 2006 (no evidence that ride took place)

DLJ 17:22, 20 May 2007 (PDT)

removed rides

Maybe we should have a link on main page to removed events.DLJ 10:57, 7 August 2009 (PDT)

Keeping all rides' statuses updated

(Discussion originated on users SomeHuman and Nsayers' talk pages, though moved here on 2010-01-04 for it might concern more editors)
Hi. Thanks for your contributions to the wiki. I appreciate your wish to clarify the status of rides on the List of rides page – it has a lot of questionable information about smaller or non-English-speaking ride locations. However, I'm concerned that your lengthy, red-letter, inline notes have made the page more cluttered, less reassuring for potential riders, and more confusing for editors to work out if rides were mooted but abandoned, or rumoured to have actually taken place. I've edited the sections I know the details of (UK etc), and I would like to tidy things up more. Please can we discuss a tidier way forward?
Nsayers 17:15, 10 December 2009 (PST) (originally posted on SomeHuman's talk)

Hi, you're doing a good job on this WNBR wiki. I'm afraid your note on my talk page remained unread till today. I had no intention to perpetually maintain all the red comments etc.

1a. But your idea that my edits confused editors about which events might have been intended and which were actually held, strongly focuses on the editors that have been maintaining the page. For myself, the true status of a very high percentage of rides was as clear as London's fogg a century ago. And most likely many other potential editors might have been scared off by such. I had hoped, and apparently not idly, that the ostentative markup would cause a proper verification, in particular for events that after my edits remained dubious or incomplete.

1b. Your work and I assume for research especially that of Marte, have helped a lot. But there were still a number of places with a status outdated by at least half a year. Apart from some further general tidying up, I corrected these, mainly by introducing 'previously suggested ride' (outdated status less than Newly planned) and 'previously planned ride'. The few past dates with an outdated 'Committed to ride' status, were with the benefit of the doubt placed amongst 'previous rides' but with a footnote reference.

1c. Hence, one can now also for those places introduce a 2010 date if this becomes appropriate. I think it might be best to remove a 'previously suggested ride' as soon as for that specific place a more recent ride was truly held, though 'previously planned rides' could be kept. (There were already lines indicating planned but cancelled rides.)

SomeHuman 2009-12-29 22:22 / 22:59 (GMT) (originally posted on NSayers's talk)

2. By the way, are you still familiar with Previous rides data - it has only a fraction of the ride locations, of which some are still being maintained well. I added the Brussels rides. You might know editors specializing in missing locations...

3. Are there instructions about using the categories? For Brussels, only its main page is categorized, none of its Brussels_200n_history pages that are linked from that main page. Although such helps preventing enormously long lists of categorized pages, the categories 'Brussels sub-page' and (the potentially enormous) 'Ride location sub-page' seem to be appropriate. These latter are found on Brussels_2007_Planning_Art_Mobilization.

SomeHuman 2010-01-01 16:50 / 18:15 (GMT) (originally posted on NSayers's talk)

Hi again. Thanks for your diligent, enthusiastic work on the wiki. However, I'm sorry to say I'm about to revert the recent edits you've made to the List of rides page. I think the changes you've made make the page more convoluted and confusing. I would prefer that the following changes are not made again in future:

• "Future" ride dates that have passed without clarification on whether they took place:
  

These should be left as they are, for local experts or people with evidence of the rides' status to correct accordingly. Adding the text "(Previously suggested rides: ...)" and footnotes just adds clutter to an already busy page. The current set-up isn't ideal, but without sufficient dedicated local wiki editors to verify and maintain ride info, I think it's the best way to maintain a reasonably easy-to-read and accurate list of rides.

• Footnotes, if they are added (I'd prefer not), should be formatted like citations so they're linked properly. There's some way to do this with wiki mark-up, but I'm not sure how.
• Please don't add spaces before ?s (eg: "June 2010?", not "June 2010 ?")
• Please don't pluralise previous ride dates if there has only been one (eg: "Previous ride: 14 Jun 2009", not "Previous rides: 14 Jun 2009")

Thanks mate. I'd be happy to discuss this with you by phone, Skype or instant messaging (message me for details) - it might be easier and quicker to come to some agreement on how to move forward. Sorry if I seem harsh, but I want to keep the rides list tidy.

Nsayers 21:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC) (originally posted on SomeHuman's talk)

(Reply on 1.) I think this makes the page unnecessarily cluttered. If a "future" ride date has passed then it still shows that the ride status is unclear, without having to write this out in full. The best we can do is do a Google search or other research to ascertain if a ride has happened.

(Reply on 2.) Yes, I set this page up. It hasn't been edited by many people though, which is a shame

(Reply on 3.) The Ride location sub-categories (eg: 2009 ride locations) should only be used on the primary ride location page (eg: Belgium). The sub-page categories should only be used for sub-pages (eg: Belgium history). This category is automatically included with the 'Ride location sub-page breadcrumb' template. There's a list of help pages here, which you're welcome to add to: http://wiki.worldnakedbikeride.org/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&namespace=12

Nsayers 23:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC) (originally replied within SomeHuman's comment on NSayers's talk)

Nick, about your concerns of 21:37, 3 January 2010:

• Any 'next ride' must not be followed with a past date. It may be clear to you that it needs later attention (see your reply of 23:54, 3 January 2010 on 1.), but with a conspicious number of these, everyone else is going to conclude that the entire page is badly maintained en utterly unreliable. Knowing that this is one of the first pages all readers come to, one should assume all data to be suspect - even perfectly updated and verified data (helped by those locations' continuously attentive editors). Thus the page must appear well maintained, simply expressing its known uncertainties.

• I'll look into the footnote links soon. Meanwhile, readers will have no problem in finding the note that a clearly recognized footnote indicator refers to.

• Unfortunately, e.g. "Jun 2010?" [never 'June' etc on that page, remember] may be questioning the year, not the month of the ride being planned. Obviously, in most cases it will be the date as a whole, hence: "Jun 2010 ?", "21/22? Jun 2007" (uncertain day of the month), "17 Aug 2008 ?" (uncertain ride), "2009 ?" ( whereas "17 Aug 2008?" or "2009?", especially in a series of previous rides with a few years skipped, can be interpreted as 'Was the ride in that year or perhaps the former or next one ?' though in fact the ride is questioned.
  

A blank however, can cause wrapping the '?' to the next line, which looks sloppy or might not be spotted by a reader. Therefore, I now replaced such blanks with 'non-breaking spaces'. (It can also facilitate an editor's searches for specific types of uncertainties.)

• Done. Please note that before my edits, there were several plurals in front of single ride dates. Having it in correct English that does not cast doubt about a ride that might have been forgotten, does require a bit of our attention to pluralize when a new date gets added. But it is a minor burden and it's worth that.

Nick, in particular about your reply on my 1. : There is very little additional cluttering: most 'Previously suggested ride' or elsewhere 'Previously planned ride' tags occur for locations without actually cycled rides. For the few other locations the extra 'clutter' is not so much a hindrance as to lose the information for those few, and then unavoidably also for all locations' previous activities by organizers. I do intend to do some more research and that will get rid of some of the assumed clutter - Your revert had destroyed several updates that already reflected some of my research. And I will soon put the two forementioned tags in grey colour, ensuring readers' easy recognition of actual rides.

A major concern is freeing up room for the next ride: For a location that had a ride suggested, planned or even committed to, the people involved last year (or even earlier) may well stay away from this wiki. New potential organizers however, used to see a 'next ride' being planned etc and could well hesitate to introduce their intended or planned next ride date. It might even deter them from organizing the ride. That's why we definitely must keep the 'next ride' open, with a clear invitation to 'Kickstart this ride'. The page is more important for rides to come than for those that might or might not have happened in the past [and only in that part of a line can there be a little clutter].

I appreciate your introduction of templates instead of direct image calls.

SomeHuman 2010-01-04 07:35 / 08:38 (GMT)

Using a ccs class only from within a single template, causes a double lookup (technically perhaps a bit sloppy) where the template itself can address the main css definitions directly. The inline css also allows differentiation between elements of the text shown from the template.

I tweaked the templates, demonstrating the much richer possibilities of inline css from templates, and now arriving at a point that hopefully satisfies your concerns for the List of rides as well as mine. Note: We should maintain the narrow letter-spacing for the dates part of each template, and the smaller characters for 'Planned' and 'Suggested'. Now, small characters occur also for (Previous ride (s): 13 Jun 2009) these might however become either perhaps (Previous ride (s): 13 Jun 2009) a little less small or even (Previous ride (s): 13 Jun 2009) normal size [for text and/or dates list, the samples here are mere approximations that depend on one's browser]. For templates that hardly ever need updating, intricacy is their reason of existence.

I changed your new text about handling past rides, now showing the * or ** that (should) correspond with the links in the list. I intend to try and get rid of my earlier footnote [1], which I assume may often become a ** (Planned) instead of a remark amongst 'Previous rides'. The plural (s) had looked sloppy but I did reintroduce it in a way that is just a notch better readable (no longer draws one's attention). And I avoided those (nearly always superfluous) for Planned and Suggested rides.

SomeHuman 2009-01-06 09:52-17:33 (GMT)

Hi. Again, I'm impressed by your dedication to editing this wiki. I think we're getting closer to agreement on some of the issues you're trying to resolve on the List of rides page. However, as a professional graphic designer, I take issue with many of the stylistic and content changes you've made:

• CSS classes are far better for the purpose of repeated styling than inline styles, and are less of a drain on resources and bandwidth. The main purpose, it seems, of your styling is to make the brackets smaller around "ride(s)". I think this is superfluous – "rides" will suffice for the majority of ride locations. As this differentiation is difficult to automate with templates, I'd rather sacrifice pedantry for a cleaner-looking page.
• Negative letter spacing cramps words and looks ugly. If anything, smaller text should be slightly more widely spaced to aid legibility. I strongly insist that letter spacing is not used.
• The differentiation of "planned", "suggested" and past unconfirmed rides is superfluous. If a lapsed "future" ride date is unconfirmed, then we just need to point people to the explanation of lapsed ride dates below. We need to get more people involved in updating their city's page, rather than second-guessing the status of rides around the globe ourselves. I'd be much happier for such rides to be simply marked as "Unconfirmed*", with a single asterisk linking to the explanation at the bottom of the page.
• Question marks: I understand your logic because you've explained it to me, but I'd much prefer not to have spaces before question marks as I don't think it's obvious what this means and it goes against standard typographic practice.
• Colouring of Previous rides lists: I coloured these grey so they're less visually cluttering. Thank you for setting up a template for this, but I think its benefit is that they can be styled less obtrusively than the rest of the page. We should primarily be promoting future rides – information on past rides is useful but secondary.

Again, I appreciate your diligence in editing the wiki, and I think we have a similar attention to detail. I think a lot of these issues could be more quickly dealt with if we communicated by phone, instant messaging, Skype, email etc. Email me at [removed from article space by SomeHuman upon moving the discussion here] to let me know how we can get in touch by these means. Best wishes, --Nsayers 21:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Nick:

• Euhh... are you serious about css for the list of rides "putting a drain on resources and bandwidth" ? And in the same paragraph "rather sacrifice pedantry" ? I have known a hex keyboard controlled computer of which I could count the number of physical memory bits by the naked eye. Meanwhile, memory and communications capacities and speeds evolved exponentially in a same direction as the size of things I can distinct on sight :-(
  

Anyway, css classes make sense only if called from different places, not if only once from a single template. Your style arguments being what they may be, we should differentiate between text as '(Previous ride[s]:  )', my '(Suggested:  )' and '(Planned:  )' or your '(Lapsed:  )' on one hand, and their [lists of] date[s] on the other - or at least keep that option open by inline direct css calls from such template.

• Negative letter-spacing is highly questionable for texts, and indeed quite a few graphicists will for a smaller font increase the spacing (relative to the font-size, though the space in points will not, I think). My argument however, is that comma+blank separated dates especially with three-character abbreviated months, fully maintain readability with a decreased letter-spacing. And precisely our series of dates are growing every year... I hope. The word-wrap that can be seen for several locations even on a wide screen, had already got me dreaming about a 'show'/'hide' of each location's series of 'Previous rides', but I think readers wish to compare theirs with other locations quickly.
• I do not want a differentiation of "planned", "suggested" and past unconfirmed rides. Only between the first two: I had stated in bold to get rid of my earlier footnote [1] that had become superfluous! And with my simplifying your explanation from three types towards two with (your great introduction of) * and ** matching the only two lapsed date templates, readers and people involved in updating their city's page alike (and we) will know how to update and when. Do not assume those people to steer clear from 'our' list: it's a wiki. So let's inform them correctly. I wish someone had bothered to do that for a visibly well-kept list when I arrived here for Brussels.
• A blank between questioned item and the question mark may go against "standard typographic practice" only where the item is clearly defined. Questioning [an event having taken place at all on] an entire date however, is not done by plastering the question mark death smack to the year alone.
• Your remark about the colours bedazzles me: Following your earlier modification, I had set the colours for the two types of lapsed dates to grey and near-grey green, both much lighter than the newly suggested/planned/assumed to repeat/confirmed/ date. Moreover, I had later on brought the dark blue 'Previous rides' towards a light near-grey blue so as to get that next ride date really stick out.
  

Let's think for a while (and perhaps have another good look at the list of rides after a [temporary] revert by yourself to my latest versions of the templates). One of these days, I might have to do such revert or re-edit of templates myself because that's the only way to see their effect on the List of rides - then not intended to enforce my style or preferences for a considerable duration, though. If you happen to spot such and need to do some urgent work yourself, I'll be online and try and keep an eye on my discussion page and/or watchlist.

I prefer keeping a discussion in writing (not enough room in my memory) for later purposes, and entirely open for others.

SomeHuman 2010-01-07 00:51-02:06 (GMT)

Instead of our nitty gritting about the 'List of rides' layout or exactly how much information we deem necessary for its readers, the heading of that page also directs the latter to the badly kept Previous rides data and - with now just ONE ride between 2006 and 2010 - Past events. Moreover, the WNBR official global site's main page links only to precisely that utterly outdated 'Past events' page. If you have permission on that intro page or know who has, one could change the link's target to the better maintained 'List of rides'. We should drop probably needless repeats as 'Past rides', and get the practically sortable 'Previous rides data' up-to-date.

We might think about creating a single database (xml?) that allows being perceived in two [or more] ways... In that case, what is this wiki's potential or policy (javascripting for user side, server-side programming [I'm not yet familiar with php but my experience e.g. in js and VB for asp servers might help me get something done here])? A database on a wiki also requires at least a form for user input. All in all a bit of an overkill provided we can limit the data to only two pages.

SomeHuman 2010-01-07 02:46 - 2010-01-12 06:09-07:21 - link update 2010-01-19 22:30 (GMT)

Some work has been done by Nsayers and myself. As the 'Past events' discussion page' states, 'Past events' became a redirect to the improved and [more] completed List of rides. Previous rides data is getting a little better too.

SomeHuman 2010-01-19 22:30

Placeholders '?', capitalization, and a missing template

Nick, you keep removing '?' behind a location wherever a lapsed ride occurs.
To me it is very obvious that a '?' occurs if a date for a next ride is not yet set. The locations at which a ride had been planned or ridden earlier, can just as well get a next ride - even by other organizers who do not wish to update the 'Lapsed' info. There is no reason to depict those locations differently from those that still have to get their first ride or that have a well maintained list of previous rides. At the contrary: by setting a '?' behind some locations but not at others with a missing next ride date, it appears as if the ride location itself is questioned (what else?).

I would appreciate your arguments on talk pages before undoing my improvements, in particular where I went through the trouble of explaining mine (either on the talk page or as an edit comment), not only for the List of rides (see also the here above section) but for instance also for Talk:Past events#New purposes.

There is a problem with the capitalization of the content of the template Previous rides:

• The dates with a capitalized 3-character month are inconsistent with all other 3-character dates, hence sloppy. It is also a highly uncommon date format. It gives a bad example and may instigate editors to place a next ride date in that format, making the page even more sloppy.
• Sometimes the content includes more than just a list of dates, e.g. "Unconfirmed 9 Jun 2007, Unconfirmed 10 Jun 2006" that gets shown as "UNCONFIRMED 9 JUN 2007, UNCONFIRMED 10 JUN 2006". Compare with "Cancelled" or "Rumoured" for lapsed rides. Sloppy and rather ugly.

I think it is best to capitalize the 'PREVIOUS RIDES' title but not what follows. The narrower character however, could best be maintained for the whole especially because the date format remains very readable and the very few occasions with some included term will have only a very short and easily recognized term. Another, minor, argument against capitalization follows hereunder.

We're short of a template: We ask to update 'Lapsed' dates, e.g. by calling these 'Cancelled'. But if one does that, it still stays flagged as 'Lapsed'. See at present Canada: Nelson and France: Nice & Toulouse. Instead of another template, we might put the 'Cancelled' into the list of Previous rides even if for some locations, there would only be a 'Cancelled' in that [extremely short] 'list'). And only if the Previous rides template would no longer capitalize its content: I would hate to see "CANCELLED (PROJET ABANDONNÉ) 10 JUN 2006" for French locations. In fact, proper French does not allow accents on capitalized characters. For the French translation of the title that so far capitalized "/(Précédente manifestations)" with two É, I took care of that by correctly capitalizing that template argument directly in the page.
SomeHuman 2010-02-21 02:04-03:08 (GMT)

User:SomeHuman: The purpose of the list of ride page should be to present a clear, uncluttered list of forthcoming ride dates, and – discreetly – of past rides that have definitely taken place. Also, given it's a long page that should quickly direct interested parties to the ride page they're interested in, the less visual/typographic clutter the better. So, with this in mind...

 ?s before lapsed ride dates are superfluous, messy, and add to the impression that there are a lot of completely uncertain rides – it is quite clear that a question mark means a completely unknown future date, and a lapsed date is just that (with a handy, short, linked explanation below). There is no need to mix the two.

Lists of past rides dates that have been cancelled, abandoned or banned are unnecessary and cluttersome (they should be moved to that ride location's actual page). Uncertain past dates could be suffixed with a ?, or likewise moved to the ride location page.

Non-English translations of simple labels (eg: 'PRECEDENTE MANIFESTATIONS', 'projet abandonné' etc) are extra clutter too – what would happen if we translated every country's language/s on this single English-language page?! If you're really bothered, set up a Fr:Liste des locations page or something.

Capitalisation: I don't understand what you mean by 3-letter capitalised date formats being inconsistent. I set the style of the past rides list to be in pseudo small-caps, to make them less prominent compared to the past dates, more "blocky" and more legible given their smaller size. Please just accept that's the way it's staying for now. I took a lot of your other suggestions on board with this (colour, size, templating).

Missing template? This is just another level of complication this page doesn't need. Add these details on the ride location page.

As to why I haven't replied to your lengthy messages, well, to be frank, life is short and you haven't exactly enamoured yourself to me. I don't get paid for doing this and there are only a few really active editors on this wiki (probably no more than 3-5!). I was quite annoyed at the way you barged in unannounced and decided on a completely new format and purpose for this (and other) pages, changed a lot of ride statuses, and made dates historical without checking them out properly. Marte and I had to do a lot of time-consuming reversions of your early edits. I've given you my contact details and asked to discuss these complex matters with you via telephone, email, IM etc, but you ignored this attempt to communicate in these other, more productive, ways. In short, be nice and I'll be nice in return. --Nsayers 00:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Nick, a '?' before a lapsed ride is no more superfluous than one before a list of previous rides or at a location that had nothing either planned or ridden: it simply indicates that a 'next ride date' still needs to be set [and where to put it in our page]. It does NOT question any ride. Hence, instead of eliminating –to my insight arbitrarily, and at anyone else's first appearance even randomly– one or two kinds, you might consider not using a question mark. It might look prettier and indeed less questioning, less uncertain, if we'd replace the '?' with for instance '...' (these dots might be typed normally, or we could use a template {{DateNotSet}} that produces a series of three perhaps thicker dots close together.

This would also make the really questioning questionmarks stand out, which could better instigate readers to provide the answers.

One does not "mix" a 'not yet set next ride date' with a 'past date without confirmation of its ride' because these are unrelated: the organizers or perhaps riders of the latter will have to provide that information. If they don't, it must not prevent someone to start organizing the next ride. You can't force the new organizers to first clean up the mess their predecessors have left. They need to see just as well as for any other location, that a next ride is to be set. And let's hope they will do just that at the appropriate mark ('?' or '...'). Hard to do if it is not there.

E.g. this location's previous rides show that any moment now, someone might put a next ride date in March 2010 at the mark, without knowing what happened in June 2009:

• Eugene, OR: ? 6 Jun 2009 Lapsed (Previous rides: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

      or rather:

• Eugene, OR: ...  6 Jun 2009 Lapsed (Previous rides: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

With your idea of not showing a 'to be set next' with a 'Lapsed' date, if someone solves the lapsed date, one is almost certainly not going to create a mark where the 'Lapsed' disappears. Unless you keep a close eye on it, the list will once again become a hard to understand inconsistent mess.

SomeHuman 2010-02-24 23:25 - samples 2010-02-26 19:15/2010-02-27 11:42 (GMT)

I modified the 'Note to editors' so that the less informed have an idea how to respond, instigating them to mention for instance an url in the edit comment, allowing verification by the habituals and their easier further handling: "Please move any such date for which you have evidence into the location's (Previous rides: ), preceded with Cancelled, Abandoned, Banned, or Postponed in case that ride did not actually took place. Your edit comment may mention e.g. an url as a reference."

We can't expect that any editor who happens to find a good reference for a past ride date (already flagged 'Lapsed' or not yet), will go and modify the History section of the location's page. Unless e.g. you would like to take care of that all the time and ASAP, I think it better to leave that most recent (non-)event where it stands. That corresponds with your valid concern about the main purpose of the List of rides: The most recent information –be it a ride, cancellation, abandonment, ban, or postponement– is likely to be very useful for anyone interested to organize a next or first real ride there. In fact, seeing e.g. 'Cancelled' will entice people far more to kickstart one, than merely another empty location or its mere list of previous rides.

Of course, only one exception date may occur for a location, the most recent one. And that has to disappear as soon as a later real ride is verified and put into 'Previous rides'. Thus there can be no clutter in that list. The removed exception needs to be mentioned in the location's History section. But with a more recent real ride, it is very likely by then to have been taken care of by a regular editor for the location, saving work for those maintaining the List of rides.

Thus, when a Lapsed date gets marked e.g. Cancelled accurately, it needs to stay in the List of rides till a newer exception or real ride occurred. But we must no longer flag it 'Lapsed' with a link to a footnote that still aks to repair it. We have 3 options: 1. Leave e.g. Cancelled d Mmm yyyy in front of 'Previous rides' (if any) without using a template at all. - 2. such with a template that no longer sets 'Lapsed' (you might use css to control the term 'Cancelled' 'Banned' etc). - 3. The e.g. Cancelled d Mmm yyyy becomes the leftmost item within 'Previous rides'. The third option is the easiest one. It looks less cluttered. It no longer draws as much attention to that date because it is not set apart, and because it gets shown as narrow as and in the colour of the real ride dates to its right. (The term like 'Cancelled' ensures that the words 'Previous rides' do not make someone assume that the ride took place.)

You find a sample further below at 'Capitalization', and with that as favourite option, there is no "Missing template" for solved 'Lapsed' dates either.

SomeHuman 2010-02-25 21:36 - rephrased 2010-02-26 05:14 - last sentence 2010-02-27 07:34-08:40 (GMT)

Non-English translations. This is a more delicate matter than you appear to realize. The general language of the WNBR wiki is English, but it serves the World. In many countries, a most problematic understanding of English is quite common, also amongst potential Naked Bike Riders and organizers. That is why the location pages often are and should be written in the location's language. The Brussels pages that I have been working at, are in three languages: the city's French and Dutch, and the wiki's English. For all locations, the List of rides does and must show the local names of the country and of the city. Not out of principle but strictly for practical readability, neither do I like to see further information about a next ride or 'Lapsed' date or in 'Previous rides' in three languages, nor do I wish to see the terms 'Lapsed' or 'Previous rides' translated. The locals can find their country and city, and should read the rest on the linked page if they can't understand English well enough. Always keep in mind though, that this is not the English language WikiPedia with alternative language sites readily available: there are no French, German, etc WNBR wikis. If some day the 885,000,000 native and 500,000,000 other speakers of Mandarin Chinese have it their way, you will have to read this WNBR wiki written in their characters - but still need to find your way with the language knowledge you have. Go from that concept while you work.

Your remark "If you're really bothered, set up a Fr:Liste des locations page or something." is highly out of order: First of all, my native language is Dutch, and my English is better than my French. Second, I only cleaned up the presentation of the French translations that were since long in the List of rides. But while these are there, you must not make these improper French by a wrong capitalization.

I would however, be rather pleased if you removed the all too cluttering and distracting non-English non-vital information from the List of rides, as you suggested and I described. If I were to do it, you would soon find me being accused here of highly contentious behaviour, in an unpleasant eternal discussion chiefly amongst members of the Brussels discussion group, to which I belong. Bear in mind that many speakers of French show a tendency to act as if their language is better, more respectable, and by more understood than English and Chinese together: It is not a coincidence that only that non-English language got into the List of rides details (including edit comment and even the dates had been brought to French). Beware: Speakers of English might get a similar reputation.

SomeHuman 2010-02-26 07:46-07:56 - edit sample (+ 'and distracting') 17:06-19:36 (GMT)

Capitalization of 'Previous rides' lists of dates: It makes a lot of sense to use small-caps for the line by line repeated term 'PREVIOUS RIDES'. It also makes a lot of sense to have a narrow character for the list of dates that follow the term. But it is totally unacceptable to capitalize dates from a 'D Mon YYYY' towards 'D MON YYYY': The latter does not exist, it is no standard, no alternative, it is not English, and no other language either. It leaves you without valid argument for asking editors to present dates in a particular format when they put dates like 'March 1, 2009', '2009-03-01', '1 mars 2009' etc in the List of rides. Google reports millions of occurrences, though actually shows links to 605 pages containing "15 Mar 2009" but 0 -nil, nada, zero, none- that have '15 MAR 2009' (web retrieval today 05:14 GMT).

While a location's last event was Cancelled, Banned or Abandoned (see my above 2010-02-26 05:14), such term will be shown as leftmost item in 'Previous rides'.

The templates and css show exactly this [fictif but realistic demo sample]:

• Asheville, NC: 15 Jun 2010 (Previous rides: Cancelled 14 Jun 2008, 9 Jun 2007, 11 Jun 2005, 12 Jun 2004)
  

which at the time of this writing looks extremely [very slightly different character shape and minutely more character spacing] like this:

• Asheville, NC: 15 Jun 2010  (PREVIOUS RIDES: CANCELLED 14 JUN 2008, 9 JUN 2007, 11 JUN 2005, 12 JUN 2004)
  

while I suggest showing it more like:

• Asheville, NC: 15 Jun 2010  (PREVIOUS RIDES: Cancelled 14 Jun 2008, 9 Jun 2007, 11 Jun 2005, 12 Jun 2004)
  

      or in case you might prefer extra character spacing:

• Asheville, NC: 15 Jun 2010  (PREVIOUS RIDES: Cancelled 14 Jun 2008, 9 Jun 2007, 11 Jun 2005, 12 Jun 2004)
  

Advantages:

1.a The 'Cancelled' can not possibly be overlooked as seemingly a part of the header.

1.b The 'Cancelled' can not possibly seem part of the header for a whole list of cancelled rides.

2.a. Format D Mon YYYY consistent with all other dates on the List of rides and thus also with one on the same line.

2.b. Other lines do not yet have the 'next ride date' set. Seeing dates just behind its place, entices to use their format. We all expect the proper D Mon YYYY.

3.a. A proper English date format that is

3.b. widely used and understood,

3.c. does not draw attention like a visually unusual format does, and

3.d. is easily enforcable with strong arguments.

As you can see, it is just as readable, as compact, and as much allowing major attention for the next ride date, as your style.

SomeHuman 2010-02-27 06:50-07:43 (GMT)

This concludes my counter argumentation for the List of rides. See also the subsections hereunder. Please, see my suggestions as a whole while looking ahead. A road is easiest and best renewed after the sewers, water, gas, electricity, fibre-optics, sidewalks, drainage and asphalt had formed a concept, not necessarily desparately trying to salvage as much as theoretically imaginable. But our job at hand is very easy and does not inconvenience anyone. I will elaborate on the last remaining topic, means of communication and wiki attitudes, on your talk page within the next 48 hours. – SomeHuman 2010-02-27 06:50-12:42 (GMT)

Related extra suggestion (1)

The above sample for Eugene, Oregon (still with actual 'Lapsed' settings, but now with my for this remark irrelevant but preferrable style for Previous rides)

• Eugene, OR: ...  6 Jun 2009 Lapsed (PREVIOUS RIDES: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

demonstrates a problem: as soon as one actually sets a next ride date without (being able to) solve the Lapsed date, there would be two dates without a clear separator. I suggest modifying the 'Lapsed' format to appear more or less like:

• Eugene, OR: 14 Mar 2010    6 Jun 2009  LAPSED    (PREVIOUS RIDES: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

  which looks nice (to my senses even nicer and easier understood), also while the next date is not set:

• Eugene, OR: ...     6 Jun 2009  LAPSED    (PREVIOUS RIDES: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

SomeHuman 2010-02-27 10:04 (GMT)

Related extra suggestion (2)

Instead of not using a template for a 'set next ride date, and using {{DateNotSet}} to produce a formatted series of 3 dots, we might use one template that simply gets a normal date or three simple dots; {{NextRideDate|14 Mar 2010}} and {{NextRideDate|...}} could then appear for instance like:

• Eugene, OR: 14 Mar 2010    6 Jun 2009  LAPSED    (PREVIOUS RIDES: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  
• Eugene, OR: ...    6 Jun 2009  LAPSED    (PREVIOUS RIDES: 14 Mar 2009, 31 Oct 2008, 7 Jun 2008, 9 Mar 2008)
  

It is the most easy and safe to use solution for newbies, and brings the most important item, the next ride date, really to the attention it deserves. And then allows a more readable lapsed date (with 3 teints that now can match Previous rides). It makes the List of rides easy to maintain without having to eliminate or copy/paste a template at many occasions. Only twice a year (southern and northern hemisphere), one overhauls the page by pasting an empty Lapsed template where it is needed, then again from top to bottom at every Lapsed one types the three dots where one just copied the date and pastes that date into Lapsed (empty or across obsoleted date, as there can only be the most recent).

SomeHuman 2010-02-27 10:53-17:30 (GMT)

Further consideration

A few months ago, I found a List of rides with a huge amount of unclear and uncertain data, with many inconsistencies. I updated and improved what I could, but still many aspects remained rather unintelligible. Meanwhile, and only after my (red coloured) pushing for clarifications, lengthy discussions, and partially reverting one another's work, perhaps it starts to become clear where things might go.

I happen to have a good knowledge of English. For so many ride locations, the potential editors do not have that advantage. In fact, I do not think a series of pages explaining who sets under which circumstances 'Committed to ride' or 'Assumed to repeat' and 'How to' instructions would do a lot of good. Though there should be a short explanation for whom seeks it. While analyzing and redesigning, I attempt to obtain a List of rides that appears nearly intuitive, including the actual location list's html source with its templates. That requires a high degree of consistency. Only then, local readers might dare to assume they understand enough to actually try and update their data. This basic work had clearly been lacking, and it still is. Too many rides are being organized by discussion groups without much attention for this wiki - it appears unimportant to them, as a source of information and as a means of rallying. Without many local editors doing their job, ours is huge and still near futile. I think that my above argumented changes and suggestions allow a bit of optimism.

SomeHuman 2010-02-27 18:39-18:51 (GMT)